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WTB: Montesa 2604T

Buy, sell, trade... or just give away the DAMN thing! :deal:
smdub
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by smdub »

Firebolter wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:48 pm Check this out-Good thing they make a chain conversion kit!
The Nucular 24F controls that Davej and I have are similar to the BAC8000 (but the Nuc is more configurable and has far better tech support.) I don't have a high power battery yet though. I'm waffling over the more stock sized 60V or getting the 72V which sticks up and requires mods to the battery door and can't be swapped back to use the orig battery quickly.
Stephen (not Steve) - '08 Monster S2R1000 / '20 Husky 701LR / KTM '20 500 EXC / '17 150 XC-W / '21 E-XC / '21 890R / '19 Sherco 300FST / Sur-Ron LBX / Segway X160 / Sur-Ron Ultra Bee
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Twist
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by Twist »

Boom Boom wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:00 pm Sure seems like buying a new Honda product you would spend a bunch more time riding and far less attempting to make something to ride... :shrug:
True dat Mike but the thing that tipped me in this direction was the ability for my daughter to use it for trail rides with me on my WR250R. I'm sure sometime this year as it warms up I'll feel the pull to be back looking at trials bikes again.
The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why. - Mark Twain
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Twist
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by Twist »

smdub wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:36 pm
Firebolter wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:48 pm Check this out-Good thing they make a chain conversion kit!
The Nucular 24F controls that Davej and I have are similar to the BAC8000 (but the Nuc is more configurable and has far better tech support.) I don't have a high power battery yet though. I'm waffling over the more stock sized 60V or getting the 72V which sticks up and requires mods to the battery door and can't be swapped back to use the orig battery quickly.
What are the advantages of the Nuc controller if on the OEM battery? Mostly I'll be crawling around in the woods on this thing but then, there's no such thing as too much power.
The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why. - Mark Twain
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BigBird
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by BigBird »

smdub wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:42 am Someone said Sam was running a Michelin Xlite? I'd love to know what size.
4 x18 standard trials tire on a 2.15 wide rim. It fits BARELY with about a 1/2" offset. I to 2 PSI with Tubless and love it.
Sam Jones - Frederick MD
GL1800 DCT TRIO Tilting Trike - KTM 525 EXC - KTM 200 XCW - 2 KTM Freeride 250Rs - TRS 300 Xtrack Trials
Lots of E-Bikes/MCs
Polaris RZR 800
Lots of MTBs and Road Bikes and a BamBuk Recumbant Tandem Trike eBike
smdub
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by smdub »

Twist wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:16 pm What are the advantages of the Nuc controller if on the OEM battery?
1) Throttle response. The Nuc has programmabe endpoints AND has an 8-pt throttle curve. So you can set the response too be as quick/slow as you like. The stock controller and throttle is very non-linear. Coming from a gas bike you may be disappointed how much twist it takes to get the bike to 'leap'. Sapping the front wheel up takes a bit of learning the timing. Now it just takes a quick snap of the wrist like any gas bike.

2) Torque. I think the stock controller is limited to ~100(150?)A per phase into the motor. The Nuc does 400A+. So it has a ****LOT**** more torque off the line. Ok, now some ohms law / EE stuff is coming...
Power = voltage * current
When the motor is stopped / turning slow, there is no back-emf and the voltage is only the current * the motor resistance. The voltage across the phases is therefore low. So lets say its 10V. 10V*400A=4kW.
The control is very efficient. Probably mid 90s%. But lets assume 100% for now for simplicity (close enough). Power out = power in.
4kW / 60V battery = 66A. The oem battery BMS will cut you off somewhere a little over 100A. So at low speeds there is ZERO advantage to a better battery. The factory battery can deliver up to about 60V*100A = 6kW.

Its helpful to remember in the mechanical world:
power = torque * speed(rpm). (there is a fixed constant snuck in there if you don't use metric units.)
Anyway, you can see at low rpm, you can still develop a LOT of torque and not require much power.

So where does a better battery help? More power. A 72V 300A BMS limit battery from litespeed can supply up to 72V*300A = 21.6kW. So that big torque you had a low speed w/ the oem battery no longer tapers off quickly w/ increasing speed. You still have crazy torque at much higher speeds. :) Can never have enough power!

3) Modes. The Nuc controller has three FULLY programmable modes. I'm plotting to turn it way down for the kid - like his OSET. You can limit top speed, torque, throttle response, power, regen braking, etc independently in each mode. So there can be a 'kiddo' mode, 'wife' mode, and 'are you ready to die?' mode.

FWIW, You don't NEED bigger wheels, different battery, or bigger controller to have a ball of fun. They are still a hoot riding stock. Kids will never notice the difference that it doesn't respond exactly like a gas bike. My wife just knows you twist the throttle and it goes. I'm picky though and it drove me nuts. Every gas bike rider who's been on my orig could notice it had a slow throttle. I'm hooked on the Nuc controller for the throttle response alone.
Stephen (not Steve) - '08 Monster S2R1000 / '20 Husky 701LR / KTM '20 500 EXC / '17 150 XC-W / '21 E-XC / '21 890R / '19 Sherco 300FST / Sur-Ron LBX / Segway X160 / Sur-Ron Ultra Bee
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by smdub »

BigBird wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:49 pm 4 x18 standard trials tire on a 2.15 wide rim. It fits BARELY with about a 1/2" offset. I to 2 PSI with Tubless and love it.
Thanks!
Hmm, I'm running the 3.5"x19 on a 2.15" rim w/ Tubliss also. Its spec'd as 3.5" but I found that is more like the carcass width. The edge knobs are quite a bit wider and rub the chain w/o a lot of dish. I see the X-lite knobs don't stick out very far. I have the Dunlop D803GPs on the trials bikes. I had thought about those at the start and had convinced myself it was just too wide. But now that I have to account for the SR241 knobs maybe there wouldn't have been that much of a difference in the real world. :think:
Stephen (not Steve) - '08 Monster S2R1000 / '20 Husky 701LR / KTM '20 500 EXC / '17 150 XC-W / '21 E-XC / '21 890R / '19 Sherco 300FST / Sur-Ron LBX / Segway X160 / Sur-Ron Ultra Bee
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Twist
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by Twist »

smdub wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:52 pm
Twist wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:16 pm What are the advantages of the Nuc controller if on the OEM battery?
1) Throttle response. The Nuc has programmabe endpoints AND has an 8-pt throttle curve. So you can set the response too be as quick/slow as you like. The stock controller and throttle is very non-linear. Coming from a gas bike you may be disappointed how much twist it takes to get the bike to 'leap'. Sapping the front wheel up takes a bit of learning the timing. Now it just takes a quick snap of the wrist like any gas bike.

2) Torque. I think the stock controller is limited to ~100(150?)A per phase into the motor. The Nuc does 400A+. So it has a ****LOT**** more torque off the line. Ok, now some ohms law / EE stuff is coming...
Power = voltage * current
When the motor is stopped / turning slow, there is no back-emf and the voltage is only the current * the motor resistance. The voltage across the phases is therefore low. So lets say its 10V. 10V*400A=4kW.
The control is very efficient. Probably mid 90s%. But lets assume 100% for now for simplicity (close enough). Power out = power in.
4kW / 60V battery = 66A. The oem battery BMS will cut you off somewhere a little over 100A. So at low speeds there is ZERO advantage to a better battery. The factory battery can deliver up to about 60V*100A = 6kW.

Its helpful to remember in the mechanical world:
power = torque * speed(rpm). (there is a fixed constant snuck in there if you don't use metric units.)
Anyway, you can see at low rpm, you can still develop a LOT of torque and not require much power.

So where does a better battery help? More power. A 72V 300A BMS limit battery from litespeed can supply up to 72V*300A = 21.6kW. So that big torque you had a low speed w/ the oem battery no longer tapers off quickly w/ increasing speed. You still have crazy torque at much higher speeds. :) Can never have enough power!

3) Modes. The Nuc controller has three FULLY programmable modes. I'm plotting to turn it way down for the kid - like his OSET. You can limit top speed, torque, throttle response, power, regen braking, etc independently in each mode. So there can be a 'kiddo' mode, 'wife' mode, and 'are you ready to die?' mode.

FWIW, You don't NEED bigger wheels, different battery, or bigger controller to have a ball of fun. They are still a hoot riding stock. Kids will never notice the difference that it doesn't respond exactly like a gas bike. My wife just knows you twist the throttle and it goes. I'm picky though and it drove me nuts. Every gas bike rider who's been on my orig could notice it had a slow throttle. I'm hooked on the Nuc controller for the throttle response alone.
Great intel Stephen. I'll probably do just what you said - my daughter and I will ride it around just like it came out of the crate for a while. But it's exciting to know that there are some folks here that have blazed this trail already.
The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why. - Mark Twain
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by davej »

BigBird wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:49 pm
smdub wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:42 am Someone said Sam was running a Michelin Xlite? I'd love to know what size.
4 x18 standard trials tire on a 2.15 wide rim. It fits BARELY with about a 1/2" offset. I to 2 PSI with Tubless and love it.
Trying to keep up with the joneses, I added a new front wheel to mine. Big upgrade for me.
20210125_172906.jpg
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by UncleND »

This one popped up on facebox.
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Twist
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Re: WTB: Montesa 2604T

Post by Twist »

UncleND wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:12 pm This one popped up on facebox.
It's in Canada (Canadian side of Niagra Falls). That'll add a few logistical details. Hmmm....
The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why. - Mark Twain
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