More "E" problems-Fire!

[Firebolter]

Fire Fire Fire, CLASS DELTA FIRE (Metal), the worst there is. They burn hotter, are as if not more caustic and require special methods to fight them. Through the chemical reaction, they can produce their own O2 hence why they can be so hard to extinguish. Most tracks now ban E cars from participating as they are not prepared for the possible fires. First responders are starting to see the issues related to all of these hi-capacity lithium battery fires.

On a carrier when you have a CLASS DELTA fire, they are typically airplane related and we would push them over the side ASAP as they can literally burn a hole through the skin of ship and hull. Bad stuff-

Wonder if this will start to show up in MC? I have not heard of any MC fires, but then again, those batteries are much smaller compared to a car.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/energy/firs ... catch-fire

[juddspaintballs]

Lots of scooter and hoverboard fires in apartment buildings lately. They're killing people in those situations. Most of the issues happen during charging, however if the batteries get punctured, they will react with the air and start a fire as well. I could see that being more of an issue on an electric motorcycle or dirt bike than in a vehicle. It isn't unheard of the batteries in a car to go into thermal overload from regenerative breaking and start a chain reaction of thermal runaway that causes the same fires. There isn't really a "putting it out" scenario in most of theses cases. Most of the FD response is to keep other things from burning and contain the battery fire to the origin. Our Haz-Mat team has these special EV fire blankets that essentially just cover up the car as it burns so it looks like they're doing something. Without specialized D fighting agents, there isn't much we're going to do about it--particularly in an emergent situation.

[Bucho]

Interesting.

New technologies, new problems

[smdub]

Lithium batteries contain no metallic lithium. They are not a class D fire. Class B extinguishers are typ needed. Li batteries in failure produce methane.

Car batteries are hard to put out because you can't get to the source of the fire. Its batteries wrapped in an armored shell, wrapped in a car. In contrast, a gasoline car fire the gas tank and lines are fairly accessible in the engine bay and under the vehicle. It would be like having a fire inside the motor you are trying to put out. Best you can do it keep that internal fire from spreading until it runs out of fuel and extinguishes itself. The big fire blankets they put over the car is actually a good solution.

[Firebolter]

I didn't say Lithium was a class D fire, I said metal is a class D. Some of these battery fires create enough heat to cause metals to ignite. In fact, I didn't use the word Lithium anywhere in my post Steve!

There are numerous metals used in all batteries in some fashion-enough heat, they can combust. Want to argue about that?

[Bucho]

Settle down guys

[smdub]

Ok Billy (hey, you called me Steve :) )

Come on, You do directly insinuate that e-batteries are a metal fire. They are not. Technically all metals 'burn'. Burning is oxidization. But there are no metals in a Li battery that 'burn' like magnesium or thermite which are exothermic oxidation. Steel and aluminum don't produce a class D metal fire as they don't 'ignite'. (yes, they can be burned. Its how an oxy-acetylene torch cuts steel.)

Yes, There ARE materials in a Li battery that produce oxygen so the fire can feed itself. There is a chemical reaction in the liquid electrolyte that is releasing the oxygen. That oxygen will combust with other parts of the electrolyte and (mostly) plastic electrodes and insulators. Lots of hydrocarbon fual. There is no 'metal' in a Li battery that really burns. Yes, it can burn hot enough to oxidize surrounding metals but not really 'ignite' them. FWIW, Li is <1% of a battery by mass. Technically if the battery has been charged below freezing or is overcharged, some of the lithium salt will plate out onto the electrodes as metallic lithium but its still really small.

Lithium batteries are like gunpowder or many other oxygenated compounds. They can release their own oxygen when decomposing so they will self-feed a fire. What makes them particularly dangerous is they have all three corners of the fire triangle available (fuel, oxygen, heat source (if something fails.)) Something not mentioned is Li batt fires also produce particularly nasty toxic fumes. In addition to all the hydrocarbons burning there are typ flourine atoms available which can bond with the hydrogen into really ugly stuff.

[Wingfixer]

Nerd fight!!

[juddspaintballs]

It's a fire tetrahedron (fuel, oxygen, heat, and chemical chain reaction)

[smdub]

It's a fire tetrahedron (fuel, oxygen, heat, and chemical chain reaction)

You're right. That's why Halon is so cool.