AMA, NVTR, Liability, etc

[Rut Row]

So lets start with some history. DAMN was formed when the ADV east forum was split into north/south. DAMN is not a club or association. At best it is a bunch of irreverent f.... well, you get the idea. A herd of dirt bike riding miscreants is a polite term. The primary goal was to meet other like minded local riders, , hang-out and have fun.

We've had a few group rides on a pick-up basis but nothing official. Recreational riding has been our focus as well as making fun of the street riders who think a few specks of gravel on pristine asphalt constitutes a DS ride. The annual DAMN reunion has been our trade-mark event. And it is, at best, barely organized. The 777 ride was a big hit and we've been getting interest in more DS rides which coincided with the formation of Team RAMS and the desire by a few of us to support Code and a worthy cause. This resulted in a discussion of liability and how do we protect ourselves (and how do I protect myself since DAMN is registered in my name).

Option 1:
So, last night I met with Chris Borger who is the District 7 AMA rep and Tommy Dietz (aka brappp) from NVTR. Chris would love to see us become a AMA club as there is no AMA recreational club around pushing DS rides as a primary focus. He and several others would like to see more DS rides and will be participating in any we put on. IMHO, the primary benefits of AMA are liability insurance for AMA sponsored rides and increased exposure. The costs to form an AMA club is nominal - annually $75 ro AMA and $25 to District 7. AMA provides a model charter and by-laws for use. Interesting, it is not clear whether or not we would need to become a Maryland Non-Profit - Chris doesn't think we would need to do that. That bears further research.

It is very important to note that AMA does not require AMA membership for all participants in recreational rides.

If we did want to pursue non-profit status, that is the real cost (and it is a start-up or initial cost). The runs $200 to the State and $400 to the Feds.

Option 2
Tommy Dietz is an officer in the Northern Virginia Trail Riders (NVTR). NVTR puts on the Shenandoah 500. You might blame all this on Tommy as he contacted me this winter about putting on some un-sponsored DS rides. That was consistent with what were (DAMN) were doing anyway so I agreed and that is the genesis of the April 10th Fredneck Ride. We could have our larger, formal rides sanctioned through NVTR (assuming the would approve of it and that hasn't been determined yet) and use their AMA status to get insurance, etc. The ride then would be a NVTR ride organized by DAMN.

Option 3
We could have MS be our sponsor and put all rides on as Team RAMS (MS approved organization) and use whatever MS requires for liability mitigation, etc.

Option 4
Don't do a DAMN thing, don't allow the words "DAMN Riders" to be used with an organized ride. Add disclaimers to the board that this is a forum for like minded individuals but the board does put on organized rides - individuals do and the organizing individual assumes all liability.

Option ????
I'm sure there are other options too.

I'm pretty comfortable that just running the board is a low liability event for me. The rides are another matter.

Here's my view. I'm reluctant to becoming a club president. I don't want to work that hard. I'm already heavily involved in a professional association I started. I'm concerned with personal liability - not only mine but that of which ever one of us decides to organize a large ride. I'm not worried about small ride with our friends, I'm worried about the "organized" rides where strangers join us. I'm worried about someone doing something stupid at the DAMN Reunion.

I like the idea of becoming an AMA club from a personal perspective. AMA recognizes sidecar racing and if we are organizing our own events, I don't have to beg an organizer to add sidecars. Also I've seen a lot of growth on the forum with new members wanting to get into DS riding. I think there is a demand there and it would be fun to see DAMN fill that need.

If the consensus is to pursue an AMA club, I'll support it but someone else needs to lead the charge.

Thoughts? We can discuss more at the meet/greet.

[dc_Minnesota]

i personally think the question to ask first is, does DAMN Riders plan to or even want to hold organized, sponsored rides. if so, then you as owner of DAMN Riders, need to decided what works best for you, regardless of who here does the leg work of organizing the ride. it's your ass on the line and the rest of us are friends, associates, or even just screen names and have no legal association or tie to DAMN Riders. unless DAMN Riders becomes an actual organization with positions (whether volunteer or paid), all legal ramifications come back to you. the reason that i say this, if you allow others to influence what route DAMN Riders takes, they have no liability or stake in that decision. you have to do what you feel the most comfortable with whether that is associating with one of the options you listed below or deciding DAMN Riders will carry on "as is" as casual group of people who themselves post about rides being held, but those rides having no direct tie to the forum.

[Rut Row]

i personally think the question to ask first is, does DAMN Riders plan to or even want to hold organized, sponsored rides. if so, then you as owner of DAMN Riders, need to decided what works best for you, regardless of who here does the leg work of organizing the ride. it's your ass on the line and the rest of us are friends, associates, or even just screen names and have no legal association or tie to DAMN Riders. unless DAMN Riders becomes an actual organization with positions (whether volunteer or paid), all legal ramifications come back to you. the reason that i say this, if you allow others to influence what route DAMN Riders takes, they have no liability or stake in that decision. you have to do what you feel the most comfortable with whether that is associating with one of the options you listed below or deciding DAMN Riders will carry on "as is" as casual group of people who themselves post about rides being held, but those rides having no direct tie to the forum.

If we create an organization, I would transfer the domain and website to that organization. I've always viewed myself merely as the custodian. IMHO, RRob, hondahawkrider, mdubya are the rightful owners of the name - they came up with it.

but I agree with your first statement.

[Grady]

My favorite thing about DAMN, is the fact that it's unofficial. There are no dues, no mandatory obligations, no commitment. I think that's a big draw for many of us. we can be as involved or distant as we'd like. I fear that if we we're affiliated with any other organization, then even a local evening ride with friends (if planned on the forums) would need "approval". I like DAMN the way it is, but I do believe we need to protect KEN and any ride planners.

I'm not against an organized group to plan dual sport events. I just don't think it should carry the DAMN name. I'm all for helping in any way I can to get an official AMA recreational dual spot group going, but I think it should be separate from DAMN.

I would love to see more dual sport events, and would be more than willing to help out with this, but I love DAMN's casualness. If there's a way to keep DAMN the way it is, and also host legitimate events, I vote for that. DAMN practically survives on it's own. I know Ken does more work than anyone else, due to being webmaster, but I think the forums almost self sustain. It's almost like a commune where everyone just does there part with no official leader, and yet it works.

I think before any major decisions are made, or another group is formed, there is some research needed. Yes, DAMN has really grown, but why exactly. I'd like to hear why others like and come to DAMN. I'd be curious to find out if some of the official organized dual ports entry numbers have changed over the past few years. I think ecea added a dual sport class to enduro events last year. I wonder if this was due to demand for more options for dual sporters, or to try and bring more riders to enduros.

I think there is probably a good demand for more official dual sport events, and I would like to be a part of it if possible.

[Grady]

If we can find a way to protect KEN and the group, host larger events, have informal small rides (without having to keep them secret or invite only), and not loose the DAMN casualness, I think that would be the best of all worlds. I just don't know what option that is.

[dc_Minnesota]

to answer Grady, i stay involved with groups like DAMN or even ADV cause there isn't a commitment. i ride because it is something i enjoy doing, and being able to discuss that or ride with others of the same mindset, only makes sense. but once you throw on a requirement for that participation, it now becomes another "job" for me. not something i want.

Ken, i have seen a number of on-line forums collapse once they have decided to form an organization for a number of reasons. the biggest reason always seems to be once you start looking for time commitments on a volunteer basis from most or all members, things start to go south pretty quick. at first everything seems awesome, everyone is eager to participate, but 6 mo to a 1 yr down the road, everyone starts to disappear. i have seen numerous friendships get destroyed and the amount of bad blood and bitterness that can develop is insane. right now you are looking at a continuous core group of DAMN of about 10-15 people (right now i don't count myself in that as i haven't been around that long or ridden with anyone here much). if you create an organization, those 10-15 people are going to be on the hook to keep that organization running. i saw a forum with 200+ active members collapse on itself in the matter of months once it tried to become an organization and hold an annual rally and have regional chapters. yeah, there were plenty who wanted to help out, but it was trying to become something that was not what the members really wanted (though most of them didn't realize it until it was too late in the process).

an organization needs leadership, so if you form an organization, a loosely formed group of people from a forum will not keep it up and running long, especially if you are holding outside events. i'm not saying it can't be done, cause it can. but running events takes a lot of time. you just talked to the guys from NVTR and AMA so you know what kind of time commitments that are needed to make it work.

not sure when I became as long winded as Code, but those are my thoughts.

[code]

not sure when I became as long winded as Code, but those are my thoughts.

Long winded

My thoughts... keep DAMN the way it is. Just make sure people leave "DAMN riders" out of their subject line when doing casual rides, and things like the reunion and so on. Don't make reservations any where under damnriders and so on. Do rides like a group of guys doing a ride, not a group of guys doing a ride that met on a forum. Get it? (problem solved for DAMN)

We've already pretty much sealed the deal with the RAMS thing, but not as to what direction we really want to go with it. If you want to make that and keep that as a "sub-entity / club/ team" style format, then people interested in helping create the larger format ds rides can get involved and those that do not, can stick with the DAMN stuff. However, once you get involved in the rams stuff, you need to be semi-committed. make sense?

and to answer the question bout why i came here.. jason pointed me here when I was telling him about my interest riding dirt and gravel as oppose to pavement anymore. Tired of the hussel n bussle dealings on highways and seeing how fast I can take a turn isn't as appealing as venturing off the beaten path. Keep the forum as is, make the one lil' note bout using forum names in subject lines and keep it as is... you've got a family here, no need to separate
us.

Think that's still shorter the dcminns post and this as an option... Run all sponsored rides through MS (Code does all the work)

[mdubya]

I voted status quo, for many reasons.

Ken, you have to do what works best for you.

And many thanks to you for taking the initiative to start the DAMN site. It has been the best loose knit, unofficial, whatever you want to call it group that I have been a part of. And the reason is due to the unofficial status and nature of the group.

Although I am quite long winded myself, I prefer the attitude of "Shut Up and Ride".

I will continue to share my riding with anyone who is interested. I cannot live my life in fear of some unforeseen liability.

Just for giggles: RRob and I have both managed to crash out on rides we organized and lead. Should we consider suing ourselves for liability?

Ride fast, take chances, safety third!

[Boom Boom]

If the organization is not hosting AMA events why join AMA? Our small trials club is involved with AMA but only for insurance purposes for our "organized" trials events. You will have to attend the district scheduling meetings to have your event scheduled and the AMA insurance classes each year.
Honestly, if someone wants to be involved with helping organize a dual sport event, go join one of the local clubs, all clubs can use help.
DAMN should be nothing but a website for gathering and sharing information.
No "organized" events should be posted as DAMN events.
I would think a discloser stating if you attend any event listed on this forum you are doing so at your own risk and DAMN accepts no responsibility.
Just my 2-cents

[XRAnimal]

I’m not up to speed on all the legal “what if’s”, but I will share my opinion… Keep DAMN the way it is if at all possible.

There are lots of organized (official) DS rides out there for those who want to do them.

I’ve been a long time participant in many NC saltwater fishing message boards and informal clubs like DAMN. During that time I’ve seen way too many of them collapse and/or splinter off, then fizzle out. Most of the time their demise is related to becoming formalized, adding dues, the “leader” burning out or a pissing contest between side A and side B.

Besides, I like participating on a MB where I can say "pissing" without being reprimanded.