Sur Ron Tuning. aka geek speak.

[smdub]

Goldilocks situation in the making right there.

Just need an Alta to park beside them right?

I'm guessing that conditions at eagle bay were either stagnant or stifling

Option C) Both! Even by noon the grass was still wet from dew. 100% humidity. I overheated and had a headache on the way home. Neither Dan or I expected it to be that hot.

I found a '21 Freeride E-XC w/ 6.6hrs & 104mi and a VA street title . I didn't get to test ride it much when I picked it up Mon night. He was in an RV park and I didn't want to go tearing around and make trouble. When I charged the batt and finally got to ride it around the house Tues evening I have to admit I was underwhelmed. I thought "its not nearly as fast as the SurRon" as it just doesn't try to wheelie/kill you constantly. They both make similar power (21kW = ~28hp peak.)

The '21+ got bigger Formula brakes compared to older Freerides. I don't know what was on the old ones but I parked the E-XC beside the 500EXC-F and they look near identical. Same basic rotor diam, thickness, and caliper & pad shape/size. One is marked Formula and one is marked Brembo is about the only difference I can tell. I might even bet the pads interchange (I need to actually look into that so I can have a spare set on hand if they are different.)

So we get to EB Wed morning and unload the bikes. We run a short loop (1.9mi) w/ Dan on his 450XCW and me on the E-XC and kiddo on his X160. After the warmup, I pull out the SurRon and Dan/I drag race the two. He's 30#+ lighter than me an on the E-XC. I'm on the SurRon. The SurRon will quickly pull about 1/2 a length at the start but then the KTM gets it back almost as fast and then slowly pulls away. We repeated several times and its the same each time. We swapped riders and same results. Dan also remarked the KTM feels much slower than the SR but when he looked down at the speedo was going 40+mph. It gains speed deceptively fast. Where the SR wants to wheelie and feel like its trying to kill you in mode 3, the E-XC just gets up and goes. The result surprised both of us. FWIW, the SR is setup: 60T sprocket, Nuc 24F (400A(?) phase, 300A batt), 72V/30Ah Litespeed, Fox 40/DHX2, 21/19" wheels. We parked the gas bike and Dan and I rode the electrics the rest of the laps.

So first ride review out on the trail:
The KTM brakes kick ass. Again, I don't know anything about the old ones but the Formulas are firmer than any Brembo I've used. They have absolutely beautiful feel. Dan remarked once he got into 'mountain bike mode' in his brain the LHRB was *SUPERIOR* to a foot brake. I rode it like a hooligan. You can effortlesly slide (or not!) the rear end into any turn. Even sandy right handers w/ you right foot stuck out. Swapping back and forth from the KTM to the SR highlights that the SR's brakes are complete shit in comparison (and they are 'decent' as MTB brakes go. The E-XCs are just on another level. Time to upgrade the SR brakes... ) Dan loved the lack of shifting. 'No thinking about need to be in this gear coming out of the next turn, or need to downshift twice before that obstacle, just twist and go and think more about riding.'
The throttle response in mode 3 is very 'gas like.' KTM did their homework. You don't have to remember you are on an electric when hopping something - it just responds like you think it should. Going back and forth between the SR & KTM, I think I should change the formers throttle curve to better match the latter. The KTM just felt that little bit 'better' off the bottom end. There is a little bit of free play in the KTM throttle I'll want to eliminate.
Suspension: The SR w/ the Fox setup is far more small bump compliant. But I definitely don't have the rear end of the SR dialed in as it still chatters under big power esp over roots. The E-XC is harsher but more dialed in out of the box. Eagle Bay is pretty torn up w/ LOTS of sand sections and ruts at the moment. W/ the KTMs extra mass, at 40mph its settled in and calm. I haven't touched anything like preload or checked the clickers yet. But so far so good. Doesn't ride like a wet noodle or anything (but EB is all TIGHT single track so things will change out in the open. I know the fork is damped SOFT.)
Size: The KTM is MUCH closer to a full sized bike than the SR. That said, the bars are still in the full rear stock position and it feels small. I need to set them forward and get risers like I have to w/ my other bikes. A stock 500 feels short to me w/ my orangutan arms & legs so I don't want to be harsh on the Freeride yet. What stands out on the KTM is its width. It is insanely narrow. Skinnier than my 150 by a good bit. Narrower than the play-bikes. Its just flat-out skinny. The jury is out whether the necessarily skinny seat will take its toll on my ass. I'm guessing it doesn't have enough range to be sitting on it long enough to ever find out.
Looking forward to taking it out to places that are more technical and see how it does. Will definitely take it (along w/ the 150XCW) to Kairos in Oct.

[Boom Boom]

Nice report and congrats. You think a real full sized rear tire hooking traction and using power might cause the KTM to feel a bit slower off the bottom? Does it have any type of clutch or all twist the grip?
The brakes on older freeride were just same as on the KTM 85, one huge downfall of the bike to anyone trying to ride agressive

[Bucho]

Cool, thanks for the review

[smdub]

Mike, No clutch. But a little pump w/ your legs and a snap of the wrist will bring the front end up like a trials bike. Its not making 300cc level of power but it's predictable. IMO, Hands down it's the best 'feeling' throttle response of a stock e-bike I've ridden (if you are used to gas.) The SurRon Is making 300cc levels of grunt off the bottom end however.

We thought about the tire differences. The guy took off the oem Maxis(?) trials tires for Michelin Starcross knobbies upon delivery. The SurRon is on Shinko SR241 trials tires. The dirt road we were drag racing on was fairly packed and we THINK both were hooking up off the start. Both can (silently) roost in the loose stuff however. The SR front end washes out in places when hauling butt in the soft stuff w/ it's front tire. Originally I didn't think I'd be modding it for so much power when I picked the tires. I could probably play w/ the field weakening of the Nucular 24F controller to get a little more top end and make the SR 'win' but I'm not going to bother. Even by 40mph it's probably only 2 bike lengths different, advantage KTM. In the woods that's equivalent for all practical purposes. The SurRon is air cooled (vs the KTMs water cooling) so I'm not sure how long it could sustain that level of power either. I'm on borrowed time w/ the primary belt drive too at those lveles of power already. Need to get one of the chain conversions instaalled. Dan is a madman in the woods and could slowly pull away from me on either bike (proving its the rider and not the bike.) I'm just not willing to go that fast through the trees.

The KTMs chain makes more noise. I think it's due to it has slack typical of a dirt bike and flops about a bit and runs over the wear blocks. The SurRon sprockets are coaxial w/ the pivot so the chain is run pretty tight and never touches anything. Dan was laughing as when he stops to wait for me he says all he can hear is some whirring and then me sliding/roosting the rear tire in corners.

[Boom Boom]

You guys need to stop....this is actually sounding like fun. A clutch and gears would be icing on the cake.
E Trials bikes are there with clutch and not sure why Gas Gas has not put the e- bike on the market with full gears and clutch...it was available for purchase back when Turrot purchased Gas Gas but no longer since KTM has taken over Gas Gas. Nice to hear KTM upgraded the brakes on the Freeride. The Freeride I purchased from Bruce I was able to get the engine to be tuned around a very stupid design to work decent but the brakes would never tolerate anything more than a very basic putz around ride.

[smdub]

I've done some more digging. The F brakes (caliper and pads) are unique to the '21+ Freeride E-XC. The rears are the same as the '21+ 85SX (which apparently also got an upgrade.) The front & rear hubs are same as '21+ 85SX too (which makes sense as the 43WP forks are the same.)

I don't think gears make much sense in an electric. If you can get 3:1 const hp range on the motor (which is about the spread on a modern 6-spd gearbox), gears are pointless. Wider than that and the electric single speed even has an advantage. All that takes is more battery voltage and higher current peak controller. My SR makes more low end torque than my 150XCW *AND* has a higher top speed. It just doesn't have as much hp. Gears don't change that. The Alta is a good example. It has nutter levels of peak torque and power. I don't think you'd ever want for gears. Can't possibly put down more low end torque. Maybe you want to go 100+mph though?

Clutch on the other hand... In theory if you can develop enough peak power in an electric, you can make equivalent torque as fast as dumping the kinetic flywheel energy w/ a clutch. No one is doing that yet. There are also valid arguments to the fine motor control of your left hand vs gross motor function w/ your right. However, in theory, an electronic lever to simulate a clutch could do this. So, I'm conflicted over this issue. Personally, I'll take a LHRB any day over a clutch but I can see the appeal of each. I can most understand the desire for a clutch in trials where the required sophistication of motor control isn't commercially available yet.

The Electric Motion race/R series of bikes /w no gears but have a mechanical clutch are the right combination today. But the EMs have small batteries and *HALF* the power of my bikes so while fine for trials, I don't think they'd be nearly as much fun on the trails. Since no perfect bike exists, have to pick the ones w/ compromises you can live with.

[smdub]

The Nucular controls just got a software update. I haven't installed yet but will try this weekend.
https://nucular.tech/tpost/5a58ajlpa1-bigbug-update

Edit: Update went fairly easy but it resets all your settings. I forgot to export them to a file first :(

[davej]

[smdub]

Cool vid. That's Mike Patey. He made Draco - about the most extreme STOL plane ever.

[Twist]

Scrappy hauling Segway/SurRons is on the cover of this month's Sport Aviation magazine:



And the centerfold :)