Stark VARG

[smdub]

One thing to remember about "25 HP" is that you still get all that torque and watching the video he was clearly not lacking for power.

~Patrick

You don't :( It was the first thing obvious on my test ride. Its a total dog at low power. At 25hp it makes less 'snap' than a stock 6hp Light Bee. Very difficult to wheelie the front end onto a curb. Took about 45-50hp before it really had the low end performance of a modded 20hp Light Bee or 25hp stock KTM E. This has been a common complaint w/ some Varg owners on the forums.

[phoo]

You must be in the "convince myself I don't really want a Varg" forums because that's counter to everything I see in the three forums I'm in and the videos I just watched. :)

I will say that it did look doggish in the MX track portion (super deep, sloppy mud), but that section sucks (literally) and I blame the rider as much as the bike because I can hear him cut the throttle on the jumps and in those giant rut fields. Not to mention the other bikes looked sluggish there, too.

Here's the other harescramble video I saw, before finding the one of the Hangover. Finished fifth at 1:38 with 22% charge remaining, with a Tubliss that went flat on the second lap. @20:00 he attacks a pretty decent rock garden going uphill. In a comment he said his power settings were "Mostly 30-35hp with 75% regen."

And another post. Range and power look good for the things I do: "First single track ride-22 miles 98% to 38%, 40 degrees, muddy, 40hp 80 regen, 190 pound rider, mousses installed on bike. Very little coasting because of muddy conditions, with 3000 vert of climbing, fast flowy riding."

But like I said before, I would be hard pressed to buy another bike before that UltraBee went to the Great Battery Recycler in the Sky. That bike was sweet and a blast to ride. It was crazy how easily it went up that big hill climb at Mtn Ridge.


~Patrick

[gots_a_sol]

The VXCS just added open-E class for this year


https://www.vxcs.website/post/virginia- ... 1qxEdHPUUM


.

[smdub]

You must be in the "convince myself I don't really want a Varg" forums because that's counter to everything I see in the three forums I'm in and the videos I just watched. :)

LOL. I just used to design EV drives and can pickup on this stuff quickly. I invented an optimal SVM zero vector selection algorithm (for higher efficiency) back when I was at VPEC/GE/Ford.

Do you read electricdirtriders?
https://electricdirtriders.com/threads/ ... post-37396

The biggest and only issue to me for woods riding with the Stark is the lethargic throttle response at HP settings below 50hp. For Riders who don’t hop and wheelie over stuff, it will be great at those lower HP levels. I like to wheelie over obstacles as much as I can with my 300 XC. Like you said, it takes a very healthy pull on the bars to do that at low HP settings with the Stark.

I tried 65+ hp in the trails and loved the snappy throttle BUT it was borderline dangerous and for sure exhausting. The Stark power is so instantaneous at those settings that it is very easy to over wheelie and or to wheelie violently. Hopefully, the new software upgrades Stark told me are coming will address this.

There are other folks who have/had both and say the Alta is still better to ride in technical. My brief ride on Dave's Alta MX there were no throttle issues that jumped out at me (the ultra-stiff mx suspension is what did.)

I picked the Varg throttle thing immediately during the demo ride. In its 20hp mode I expected to basically have a KTM-E under me. I have to tell you it's a total dog in comparison in that mode. Having a lot of other electics that do it right/wrong its easy to see. The good news is that this is software fixable. The bad news is when or even if. Stark has proven they can do an OTA update now but they have missed the mark on just about every advanced software feature they initially promised. I won't hold my breath.

I haven't ridden a BAC controller but of the ones I've ridden IMO only the Nucular controller really nails it. The KTM is second in throttle feel (its a shame they don't give you full torque at zero speed.) The UltraBee is exhausting in rocks w/ its throttle dead zone / snappiness. I've had a Nucular controller on order for close to a year now but they don't have the adapter harness available yet.

I will say that it did look doggish in the MX track portion (super deep, sloppy mud), but that section sucks (literally) and I blame the rider as much as the bike because I can hear him cut the throttle on the jumps and in those giant rut fields. Not to mention the other bikes looked sluggish there, too.

Here's the other harescramble video I saw, before finding the one of the Hangover. Finished fifth at 1:38 with 22% charge remaining, with a Tubliss that went flat on the second lap. @20:00 he attacks a pretty decent rock garden going uphill. In a comment he said his power settings were "Mostly 30-35hp with 75% regen."

There is nothing technical in that harescramble. The rock section at the end he just plows through. Looks like Eagle Bay. Nothing technical like Taskers, Cove, Hatfield, Mountain Ridge, or even Bucho's place in Emmitsburg. For MX or flowing stuff you'll never notice the issues. Hard enduro requires a much higher level of bike.

And this brings up confirmation bias. People gush over what they bought. There are tons of folks out there who think the UltraBee has great throttle response and suspension and defend it to their dying day even when they've neve ridden anything better. It may very well be 'good enough' for them (and what they use it for) but that doesn't mean its still not deeply flawed. What you have is always great until you ride something better. VERY few people have extensive EV knowledge.

I've got five electrics now. Not against adding a sixth (or seventh or ...) I'll prob get the Varg just to have it. I still think the UltraBee is going to get *FAR* more use.

[smdub]

Arctic Leopard E-XE 880. Lighter than a KTM gas bike and bigger battery than the Varg. WTF? This wasn't even on my radar.


CCW says there are at least 5 more electrics coming out in 2024. Including an Arctic Leopard that is more of an UltraBee competitor.

[Bucho]

Arctic Leopard E-XE 880. Lighter than a KTM gas bike and bigger battery than the Varg. WTF? This wasn't even on my radar.


CCW says there are at least 5 more electrics coming out in 2024. Including an Arctic Leopard that is more of an UltraBee competitor.

Neat!

[phoo]

[Edit: A precursor to the below. My reference to Stephen is because I respect his opinion and was concerned about the possibility of spending over $12k on something that had no prayer of meeting my needs. So I was truly thankful to get this opportunity to get plenty of seat time to form my own, informed-by-my-own-experience opinions.]

On Saturday, I swung into JT Motorsports on a whim and "rolled a 20" on my charisma and was invited to demo ride a Stark Varg at the guy's private track on Sunday. I had the pleasure of riding a Stark Varg around a woods loop for an hour and a half. The trail itself wasn't difficult, but I spent most of that time log hopping and doing pivot turns at low HP settings (30 and then 25 HP) to see what it would be like at those settings where I'd likely spend most, if not all of my time during normal riding. The other people there seemed disappointed that I wasn't going out there at over 60 HP, but the MX part of the course was not available due to Saturday's rain and I don't need to ride it at 60+HP to know that it is terrifyingly fast at those settings. Being totally honest, my primary goal was to observe or disprove Stephen's assertion that the Varg was gutless and "couldn't hop a curb" at low HP settings and not useful until 40+ HP. I'm happy to say that I have no idea what Stephen was talking about. Yes, it was gutless at 20HP. It would be fine for trying to extend range on easy terrain, but I could barely get the front wheel off the ground. But at 30HP and 60% regen, I was easily hopping nearly 2' tall logs. At 25HP and 60% regen, I was also hopping those logs but it took more effort. I was also hopping a log that was over 1.5' tall while going up a moderate hill. Pivot turns were way easier on this than it is on my 300 2T because you have instant torque and don't need to modulate the clutch. I never felt the need to shift because I always felt like I was in the correct gear. The only time I found myself reaching for a clutch that wasn't there was after hopping a log when I would instinctively grab for the clutch to cut the power used to hop the log, but since that motion also includes cutting the throttle, a clutch was completely unnecessary. So that's the tighter, more technical stuff. At only 30HP going around the trail, the bike is silent and all you can hear is me giggling like a loon because the thing is absolutely incredible to ride even at less than half of the rated power. I do wonder what it will be like in a proper rock garden, but it's so good everywhere else that I'm willing to get one and take the chance that it's great everywhere but then sucks when I get to those PA-style 200 yard long rock gardens. But I'm not too worried because when you're riding it, it feels like a bicycle. I know that's a cliche, but it's surprising how light it feels while you're riding it, or even pushing it. Which is really surprising, because I did (gently) lay it down on its side to see what it would be like to pick it up, and the answer is *punishing*. I can't imagine what it would be like dropping this on the side of a hill where you have to lift it up, just to get it horizontal before lifting it the rest of the way onto the trail, from below the bike. And I'm imagining those bars are going to bend like a banana if it drops hard on its side. I think your day would be over if you had to pick it up three times. This could also be an issue if you have to restart from a stop on a soft hill since "getting mass to start moving" is a thing. The saving grace is that with no sound you can hear the wheel search for traction and with electric power and one gear it's easy to apply gentle torque to reduce wheelspin. My host was saying how they were able to find incredible traction in the snow because of how smooth the motor is, but I have no direct experience here and there was only one hill on the trail that combined any amount of wet roots and incline so while I was able to use that hill to determine that 25HP was "enough, but barely and if the hill was longer it might not really be enough" that was about all I had. On the plus side, changing drive modes is trivial and in easy reach on the left handlebar so riding at 25HP most of the time then boosting power to 30, 40, 45, or more HP at a moment's notice is trivial.

30HP, 60% regen, nearly 2' log that had an obstacle in front of it so slow approach speed


30HP, 60% regen. Pivot turn easier than on my 300 2T.


30HP, 60% regen, after 15 minutes on the bike.


<Edit: My FB videos can't be embedded. Boo.>

And finally, their funny disclaimer if you try to put it into >60HP mode on an Alpha model



~Patrick

[Marylander]

Very interesting. It sounds like, for me as a short/aging rider, it might not be the best choice as falling over just happens sometimes (e.g., the ground is not where I expected when putting my foot down). It does look like a lot of fun though.

[phoo]

That Arctic Leopard is neat. And it comes stock with an electronic "clutch!" Too bad they didn't do the side-by-side comparison with the Stark Varg like they did with the other bikes and instead just said "have you ridden the Varg on a trail or just MX?" then mumbled "plus the Varg is heavier." It's heavier, but not by much, and has 20% more HP without being the Alpha model, which has 60% more HP. Also, they mentioned that the long range battery was a $3600 upcharge but I don't know the base price and the official site sucks (who removes the vertical scrollbar!?) and I couldn't find where to order it in the time I had to tolerate their UI. But it also comes with a headlight which is great (and hopefully implies an easy 12V source for tapping for GPS and a tail/brake light and maybe also a horn since otherwise nobody will hear you coming up behind them). I look forward to seeing it in action.


~Patrick

[Bucho]

[Edit: A precursor to the below. My reference to Stephen is because I respect his opinion and was concerned about the possibility of spending over $12k on something that had no prayer of meeting my needs. So I was truly thankful to get this opportunity to get plenty of seat time to form my own, informed-by-my-own-experience opinions.]

On Saturday, I swung into JT Motorsports on a whim and "rolled a 20" on my charisma and was invited to demo ride a Stark Varg at the guy's private track on Sunday. I had the pleasure of riding a Stark Varg around a woods loop for an hour and a half. The trail itself wasn't difficult, but I spent most of that time log hopping and doing pivot turns at low HP settings (30 and then 25 HP) to see what it would be like at those settings where I'd likely spend most, if not all of my time during normal riding. The other people there seemed disappointed that I wasn't going out there at over 60 HP, but the MX part of the course was not available due to Saturday's rain and I don't need to ride it at 60+HP to know that it is terrifyingly fast at those settings. Being totally honest, my primary goal was to observe or disprove Stephen's assertion that the Varg was gutless and "couldn't hop a curb" at low HP settings and not useful until 40+ HP. I'm happy to say that I have no idea what Stephen was talking about. Yes, it was gutless at 20HP. It would be fine for trying to extend range on easy terrain, but I could barely get the front wheel off the ground. But at 30HP and 60% regen, I was easily hopping nearly 2' tall logs. At 25HP and 60% regen, I was also hopping those logs but it took more effort. I was also hopping a log that was over 1.5' tall while going up a moderate hill. Pivot turns were way easier on this than it is on my 300 2T because you have instant torque and don't need to modulate the clutch. I never felt the need to shift because I always felt like I was in the correct gear. The only time I found myself reaching for a clutch that wasn't there was after hopping a log when I would instinctively grab for the clutch to cut the power used to hop the log, but since that motion also includes cutting the throttle, a clutch was completely unnecessary. So that's the tighter, more technical stuff. At only 30HP going around the trail, the bike is silent and all you can hear is me giggling like a loon because the thing is absolutely incredible to ride even at less than half of the rated power. I do wonder what it will be like in a proper rock garden, but it's so good everywhere else that I'm willing to get one and take the chance that it's great everywhere but then sucks when I get to those PA-style 200 yard long rock gardens. But I'm not too worried because when you're riding it, it feels like a bicycle. I know that's a cliche, but it's surprising how light it feels while you're riding it, or even pushing it. Which is really surprising, because I did (gently) lay it down on its side to see what it would be like to pick it up, and the answer is *punishing*. I can't imagine what it would be like dropping this on the side of a hill where you have to lift it up, just to get it horizontal before lifting it the rest of the way onto the trail, from below the bike. And I'm imagining those bars are going to bend like a banana if it drops hard on its side. I think your day would be over if you had to pick it up three times. This could also be an issue if you have to restart from a stop on a soft hill since "getting mass to start moving" is a thing. The saving grace is that with no sound you can hear the wheel search for traction and with electric power and one gear it's easy to apply gentle torque to reduce wheelspin. My host was saying how they were able to find incredible traction in the snow because of how smooth the motor is, but I have no direct experience here and there was only one hill on the trail that combined any amount of wet roots and incline so while I was able to use that hill to determine that 25HP was "enough, but barely and if the hill was longer it might not really be enough" that was about all I had. On the plus side, changing drive modes is trivial and in easy reach on the left handlebar so riding at 25HP most of the time then boosting power to 30, 40, 45, or more HP at a moment's notice is trivial.

30HP, 60% regen, nearly 2' log that had an obstacle in front of it so slow approach speed


30HP, 60% regen. Pivot turn easier than on my 300 2T.


30HP, 60% regen, after 15 minutes on the bike.


<Edit: My FB videos can't be embedded. Boo.>

And finally, their funny disclaimer if you try to put it into >60HP mode on an Alpha model



~Patrick

Its good you were able to roll a 20 when you needed to.

Im sure you feel much more comfortable now that you have thrown a leg over the Varg and ridden a little.